Legalities of off-street burnouts

[FGII-XR6]

Originally Posted by Fireblade

You do know people that modify their vehicles are exactly the same, your a criminal for putting an exhaust on your V8 because that's illegal, if you can hear it, it will be well over the limit.

What I'm talking about is a little bit of fun with a few mates (nothing huge for me) ripping a few skids on MY property or theirs, maybe even run around in a buggy but the do gooders has pretty much put all that to bed.

if it were a few mates it would probably fly under the radar but this is not just a few mates this is a disaster waiting to happen . this was a major event and events like this need to operated legally

Originally Posted by daniel_rossy

This was on a Saturday afternoon and there were about 150 people present with about 25 cars. .

[tankclare]

Just an idea but how about forming a car club between mates. Only needs to be non for profit and needs enough people to form a committee to be legit. Once you have the club formed and have a registered name etc with the Australian National Street Machine Association you can do a fair bit. For skids just go to the police and get permission to hold closed test and tunes on the burnout pad for members only.

Our club hold test and tune days for club members only and we do skids on our track in Kandos. We just notify the council and police what we are doing. Drivers must still be licensed and all people in the car need helmets and seatbelts etc like normal skid rules but we are allowed to do skids with just us there. No need for the fire brigade or anything else as we just use our own club fire extinguishers around the track. Whatever happens is on our own heads basically.

[The Yeti]

Originally Posted by tankclare

Just an idea but how about forming a car club between mates. Only needs to be non for profit and needs enough people to form a committee to be legit. Once you have the club formed and have a registered name etc with the Australian National Street Machine Association you can do a fair bit. For skids just go to the police and get permission to hold closed test and tunes on the burnout pad for members only.

Our club hold test and tune days for club members only and we do skids on our track in Kandos. We just notify the council and police what we are doing. Drivers must still be licensed and all people in the car need helmets and seatbelts etc like normal skid rules but we are allowed to do skids with just us there. No need for the fire brigade or anything else as we just use our own club fire extinguishers around the track. Whatever happens is on our own heads basically.

This is the most use full post in this thread, Im not sure how the ANSMA works but I know other motoring body's offer affiliated clubs a blanket insurance cover for all officail club activitys and even if they dont they will have brocors that can assist

There will be a few issues with council and the EPA, but I wouldn't know where to start there (Tank would be the person on this forum who would know the best way)

You'll find your neighbors and council / police won't be so concerned if its a 1/2 dozen cars and a fist full of people, the problem would be the 125+ people and 20 odd cars, but if its planned properly and the appropriate guidelines followed you may be able to jag an annual club event with those sorts of numbers and have the full blessing

It's not about a nanny state or anarchists, you just need to find away to play with in the rules

From what you say you had a CFA appliance and crew on standby the spectators were behind barricades and up and embankment, it would have been wise to have some of advanced first aid support (more than a $20 Supercheap first aid kit) but if the CFA is kitted up anything like the RFS you may well have had that side of things covered off also

[tankclare]

You are right regarding insurance. The ANSMA do a form of insurance I'm pretty sure but don't quote me on it as it may be another mob that does it. Not 100% sure but know there is a form of insurance. That's why our club have paid memberships with all their details and usually a driver declaration about motor racing etc being dangerous. It covers us.

I know with our pad to meet regulations we had to make the fence a minimum distance from the burnout pad. We also have gaurd rails to help make it a bit safer. There are also guidelines for marking out roads the cars travel on but in a paddock it wouldn't really matter I wouldn't think. We have a few fire extinguishers located around the pad and also use flags to let drivers know if there is a fire or any problems.

Here is our burnout pad..




Some videos of our car at a test n tune day..
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yHlySxpq1lo
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=et4rWDNcMGU

[poppa smurf]

much better, amco railing plus chain link fencing to hold the people back and the debris inside.

[tankclare]

And another pic just for good measure showing what it's all about.. Fun for everyone and keeping it safe..



Good luck with your burnout pad mate and hope you get it all sorted and can have some fun.

[The Yeti]

Originally Posted by tankclare

You are right regarding insurance. The ANSMA do a form of insurance I'm pretty sure but don't quote me on it as it may be another mob that does it. Not 100% sure but know there is a form of insurance. That's why our club have paid memberships with all their details and usually a driver declaration about motor racing etc being dangerous. It covers us.

Even if they dont they will have been in the situation before and will be able to assist.

another benifit of being an actual club in VIC is you will have access to the club rego scheme ;)

Originally Posted by tankclare

I know with our pad to meet regulations we had to make the fence a minimum distance from the burnout pad. We also have gaurd rails to help make it a bit safer. There are also guidelines for marking out roads the cars travel on but in a paddock it wouldn't really matter I wouldn't think. We have a few fire extinguishers located around the pad and also use flags to let drivers know if there is a fire or any problems.

I just kept the above bit in the quote because I thought it made good sence

[tankclare]

Club rego is a whole nother ball game. I think the club has to meet certain criteria to be able to issue club rego. There's a bit to it. We have club rego and it has caused a few dramas but won't get into any of that here. But yes when abided by correctly club rego is another great benefit when being an actual club.

[GTP-RPD]

Originally Posted by The Yeti

A/ A spectator has been hit by a car that got waywood the first arriving emergency service is the parramedics the gate is locked

Don't worry person who is bleeding profusely the fire service will be here shortly, please be patient

B/ the fire service first to the same scenario, pull up to the gate, **** the gates locked,

Q/ do we have a key to this gate Yes / No (fire services are quite often given keys to gates and propertys for emergency access)

Yes: get the key out and open in assuming the lock hasnt been changed

No: proceed to cut the chain

Yes but the wrong one: after they have wasted valiable time and then cut the chain they can no procced to the incdent,

I dont think I would like to be in that senario

Closed gates are one thing locked is just stupid

the best ones are when you finaly get in becasue some one turned up with the key just as you were about to cut the chain and let you in, then when youve driven through 3 padocks and a rail line you get back and the ambulance cant get back out becasue the idiot that let you in locked the gate behind you

yes Ive had that happen

So according to your hypothesis if someone is having a heart attack in their house behind a locked securtiy screen and a locked front door but manage to get a call off to the ambo's. They are finished because the paramedics cant get in?

I thnk you need to undertake some risk assessment training.

[superyob]

Originally Posted by GTP-RPD

So according to your hypothesis if someone is having a heart attack in their house behind a locked securtiy screen and a locked front door but manage to get a call off to the ambo's. They are finished because the paramedics cant get in?
I thnk you need to undertake some risk assessment training.

Is that not obviously the case...? Or have I missed a vital point here...?

[The Yeti]

Originally Posted by GTP-RPD

So according to your hypothesis if someone is having a heart attack in their house behind a locked securtiy screen and a locked front door but manage to get a call off to the ambo's. They are finished because the paramedics cant get in?

I thnk you need to undertake some risk assessment training.

OK mate, your sooooo right

Are you saying that it will be all beer and skittles with the gate / door locked for the ambos to get in with Old mate and his hearty? theres always a way in, the question is is there any benifit in hindering the enerence of an emergency service I for one can not think of 1 reason why you would manage a delay in to a situation

Remember for every minuet you delay CPR old mate has a 10% less chance of servival, are you preparied to manage this minuet in to your risk assesment?

For someone that seems to think he knows all about risk assesments and training you seem to want to throw a lot of risk into the equasion rather than managing it out

[daniel_rossy]

Originally Posted by tankclare

Just an idea but how about forming a car club between mates. Only needs to be non for profit and needs enough people to form a committee to be legit. Once you have the club formed and have a registered name etc with the Australian National Street Machine Association you can do a fair bit. For skids just go to the police and get permission to hold closed test and tunes on the burnout pad for members only.

Our club hold test and tune days for club members only and we do skids on our track in Kandos. We just notify the council and police what we are doing. Drivers must still be licensed and all people in the car need helmets and seatbelts etc like normal skid rules but we are allowed to do skids with just us there. No need for the fire brigade or anything else as we just use our own club fire extinguishers around the track. Whatever happens is on our own heads basically.

Thanks for the advice that's a great idea. Will definitely look into starting a non-profit club.

[BadMax]

Yeti, we get it, you want to be right. Just get over it will you!

[MercurySilver]

Originally Posted by Dash_XR

As far as I can tell, haven't read the whole thing but any activity that destroys the environment in any way (private property or not) will become illegal and policed.

All it will probably take is a neighbor to dob you in then the police/EPA or what ever new UN backed agency that pops up will come out confiscate everything and fine you.

Australia is one of the main signators along with the US although the US constitution means they don't have to actually abide by any of it where as Australia does/will.

Company carbon tax is just the beginning, wait for the individual taxes to come in.

Yet I can burn off sat mornings 9 to 3

I'm guessing that will cost money soon enough.....

[The Yeti]

Originally Posted by BadMax

Yeti, we get it, you want to be right. Just get over it will you!

No the oposite I'm happy to be wrong, I am all the time. But i want you to understand there are ramifications to every thing we do but if we use our heads we can do lots of stuff and still have our fun

[GTP-RPD]

Originally Posted by The Yeti

OK mate, your sooooo right

Are you saying that it will be all beer and skittles with the gate / door locked for the ambos to get in with Old mate and his hearty? theres always a way in, the question is is there any benifit in hindering the enerence of an emergency service I for one can not think of 1 reason why you would manage a delay in to a situation

Remember for every minuet you delay CPR old mate has a 10% less chance of servival, are you preparied to manage this minuet in to your risk assesment?

For someone that seems to think he knows all about risk assesments and training you seem to want to throw a lot of risk into the equasion rather than managing it out

If there is always a way in then what is the problem ?

After all its only a gate in a paddock designed to stop cattle the OP described earlier. The chain and HD padlock was an example. The law society mentions that do not enter signs have the same effect in a legal sense of preventing unlawful entry.

Now back to the cotton wool wrap for me.

[pottery beige]

Private Skids......



.....

[GTP-RPD]

Originally Posted by pottery beige

Private Skids......

image

.....

Don't tell me you used the hoist to get the weight off the back tyres so you could spin them.......lol

We did that out the back of parabanks on a Thursday night in the 80's in the mates Belmont.

[The Yeti]

Originally Posted by GTP-RPD

If there is always a way in then what is the problem ?

After all its only a gate in a paddock designed to stop cattle the OP described earlier. The chain and HD padlock was an example. The law society mentions that do not enter signs have the same effect in a legal sense of preventing unlawful entry.

Now back to the cotton wool wrap for me.

You said pad lock the gate, you said old mate having a heart attack behind 2 locked doors

My point is the time lost and the risk involved with that

Remember the point I made about the chance of survival being reduced by 10% for every minuet lost before commencing CPR. Just a little point I know and it really doesn't support your argument so I guess that's why you focused more on the there's always a way in

Why would you deliberately implement risk? Perhaps that's where the risk assessment training you suggested comes in. I gather that's not about reducing risk at all, and is more about seeing where we can fit just a little bit more in.

[Kable72]

Jeez, we can't even have a thread about a burnout pad without it going off topic

AFF at its finest.

[BadMax]

Because someone wants to debate on the likelihood in the vicinity of .001% chance of a serious accident and negates the reasoning that jumping in his car or crossing the road is far more likely to result in his death than the attendance at a burnout pad.

We all know the risks, it's not for you to explain the risks to adults, even Gen Y adults. Everything in life is a risk, most here drive a high powered car, some of us also ride high powered motorcycles, some of us also own loathed Jetskis.
The point is, we all accept the risks and we justify the risk versus reward. I'd much rather die doing something I enjoy than sitting in front of a TV because it's perceived as safe.

Do you know the biggest cause of death in the world? Life!

[The Yeti]

Changed my mind that post will take this south

Bad Max you have NFI where I'm coming from

[Grunter]

I for one thank our mighty elected overlords for making myself and my family completely safe!

Thank god I don't need to make decisions for myself these days! Continue to conform and we'll never get hurt!

To the OP, prior to getting shut down, how many people got injured or worse on the day? I'd imagine by reading some of the responses in this thread, that there were plenty of injuries and maybe even worse?

[Iggypoppin']

You guys are hopeless! Stop bickering, this is the third and final time I will ask you!

[tankclare]

I can see where both Yeti and Bad Max are coming from. Try not to stress to bad over it.

This is about trying to have fun chucking some skids on a blokes property without getting in trouble.

Gate wise I would keep it padlocked shut only when the owners or affiliated people are not there that way it keeps randoms who want a quick skid off the pad. When you guys are there doing skids just leave it open or unlocked (if cattle obviously shut the gate). If any unwanted people arrive thinking they can have a go or whatever just nicely turn them away. It's not hard to say sorry mate this is a closed private track. I don't really see what the problem is regarding that side of things.

Your single biggest problem is getting permission to chuck skids with the police and the pollution skids cause. That said I don't see what the difference is to burning off as it would create just as much if not more smoke. Noise wise if it's not in residential limits and out on a property then make as much noise as you want from say 9am-5pm. Just maybe give the neighbours a warning when you are going to skid. Either a friendly chat or letter in the mail box should do the trick. Even invite them over for a look and get on their good side.

As long as you keep the amount of people within reason and the number of cars within reason I can't see it being too much of a problem. I would even go as far to notify the police on days you plan to go out and do some burnouts incase they get any calls for people hooning. Same for the fire brigade with people calling in thinking there is a fire.

Get everyone that does skids to chuck in and buy a few decent fire extinguishers and maybe even make up some flags to help drivers know what's going on. Red flags for fire and black flags for oil or anything else.

A bit of thinking to cover your asses a bit helps keep everyone happy.

[Iggypoppin']

You're the only one who hasn't been rude or attempted to belittle another user tankclare. They can get their points across without being like that.

[Fireblade]

I'd get a legally binding indemnity form written up by your solicitor and have everybody (and I mean everybody) sign it before they get to participate (I would include all spectators in this too), this just covers your **** in the event of the unimaginable. And I would also limit the use for people that you know rather than allowing just anybody to come and chuck a skid.

I would also include an age limit in allowing people in, remember kids can't make their own choices in being there with their parents.

[tankclare]

Iggypoppin'- I'm a lover not a hater lol. But yeah arguing over stuff like this just makes the sport I love even harder to get away with. There is enough bad publicity over cars and hooning as it is without actual car enthusiasts stirring the pot from within. The last year I believe has been a big step forward with more burnout comps popping up all the time. Burnouts are really starting to become a family sport with shows becoming more family friendly and people getting interested.

Fireblade - You are 100% right. If you guys are really serious about this and by the looks of it you are after spending the money to lay down a dedicated burnout pad, I would get driver declarations made up with printed names and signatures that drivers must sign. You probably don't need to worry too much about spectators signing anything but just a sign saying motorsport is dangerous and entry at your own risk etc at the gate would be a good idea if you get what I mean. We put a sign up at our front gates.

As long as kids have some form of adult supervision and aren't running around like spastics they will be ok. For test n tunes we get the kids dressed up in the appropriate gear and let them come for rides in the cars as passengers. They love it. In a way it's teaching kids a bit about the cars and getting them interested.

[tex]

I can't stand wowsers, and there's a couple surfaced in this thread, good advocates of Harrold Scrubey they make.

But. I am going to impart a real life event that happened down my way at a shed party attended by around 2o people, the majority blokes ranging in age from 18 up to 50. All of them mates, not a single ring in, the shed had become a meeting place for the 'gang' and a routne Friday night kind of thing.

Big shed, concrete floor, heaps of space, enough for cars to do a circle. Plenty of space everyone thought.

The most freakish thing happened one Friday night, well into the festivities on this particular night a Holden 'rana 5 lt gets the big rev and BOOM! Flywheel explodes, shrapnel flys, shed walls and roof get holed, one young guy gets hit.

Very very lucky not to lose his leg, but months of physio and ops later he will never play football again, quality of life changed forever.

Coppers attended (along with the ambos) and there was real chance the driver could have been hung, drawn and quatered. And the property owner. Despite everyone having been there of their own free will, and the injured person not wishing any action to be forthcoming. Despite it being a private, and in this case, closed door shed 'function'.

I know there was several weeks sleepless nights for the driver, the shed owner, and pretty well everyone else in attendance. It was a bastard of a situation for all involved, the best of intentions turned to crap, and literally, someone almost loses a leg.

The driver of the 'rana was doing nothing more than what many (most) other attendees had done heaps of times before.

In the end, no charges were laid, but it came down to the line, and as I said, the stress for everyone concerned was huge.

My point?

None really, you lot can make of it what you will. I have my own view on the 'private' function involving motorcars.

I believe people have a right to attend, participate, spectate whatever they personally deem safe to do so, especially in the context of private property, invitation only, consenting adult choices should prevail in our society, any society. But we don't live in a free society, we live in a govmit controlled one. Freedom, liberty, choices are no longer an indiviuals to make. And I'm not talking about choices that could harm, impinge, damage anothers body, property or quality of life, we live more and more in a society where self responsibility continues to be removed and sanctioned.

The wowsers do have fuel to maintain their own position on the matter of private events.. Bad stuff can happen, bad stuff does happen.

Eventually, burnout competitions, the sanctioned and professionally organised and conducted ones will go the way of the American version. Chocked wheels, static display with the car surrounded by concrete barriers. About as exciting as watching a duck lay a crap.

And by then, others will be banging on that the poor environment and baby dolphins should not be subjected to acrid tire smoke, and the fledgling starlings in the tree 100m away should not be exposed to the noise.

Hope I'm wrong.

[The Yeti]

Originally Posted by tex

I can't stand wowsers, and there's a couple surfaced in this thread, good advocates of Harrold Scrubey they make.

But. I am going to impart a real life event that happened down my way at a shed party attended by around 2o people, the majority blokes ranging in age from 18 up to 50. All of them mates, not a single ring in, the shed had become a meeting place for the 'gang' and a routne Friday night kind of thing.

Big shed, concrete floor, heaps of space, enough for cars to do a circle. Plenty of space everyone thought.

The most freakish thing happened one Friday night, well into the festivities on this particular night a Holden 'rana 5 lt gets the big rev and BOOM! Flywheel explodes, shrapnel flys, shed walls and roof get holed, one young guy gets hit.

Very very lucky not to lose his leg, but months of physio and ops later he will never play football again, quality of life changed forever.

Coppers attended (along with the ambos) and there was real chance the driver could have been hung, drawn and quatered. And the property owner. Despite everyone having been there of their own free will, and the injured person not wishing any action to be forthcoming. Despite it being a private, and in this case, closed door shed 'function'.

I know there was several weeks sleepless nights for the driver, the shed owner, and pretty well everyone else in attendance. It was a bastard of a situation for all involved, the best of intentions turned to crap, and literally, someone almost loses a leg.

The driver of the 'rana was doing nothing more than what many (most) other attendees had done heaps of times before.

In the end, no charges were laid, but it came down to the line, and as I said, the stress for everyone concerned was huge.

My point?

None really, you lot can make of it what you will. I have my own view on the 'private' function involving motorcars.

I believe people have a right to attend, participate, spectate whatever they personally deem safe to do so, especially in the context of private property, invitation only, consenting adult choices should prevail in our society, any society. But we don't live in a free society, we live in a govmit controlled one. Freedom, liberty, choices are no longer an indiviuals to make. And I'm not talking about choices that could harm, impinge, damage anothers body, property or quality of life, we live more and more in a society where self responsibility continues to be removed and sanctioned.

The wowsers do have fuel to maintain their own position on the matter of private events.. Bad stuff can happen, bad stuff does happen.

Eventually, burnout competitions, the sanctioned and professionally organised and conducted ones will go the way of the American version. Chocked wheels, static display with the car surrounded by concrete barriers. About as exciting as watching a duck lay a crap.

And by then, others will be banging on that the poor environment and baby dolphins should not be subjected to acrid tire smoke, and the fledgling starlings in the tree 100m away should not be exposed to the noise.

Hope I'm wrong.

Mate you've just used real life experience to prove my point, I know you put me in the wowser camp and thats not my angle

No one wants to see chained and chocked burn outs (I went to one years ago and it was worse than watching Dalton Abby)

My point is freak accidents can and will happen and we don't know when, if we take a few precautions to stop the **** coming down on us in the unlikely event that an accident happens the fun will last longer

It seems you guys were EXTREAMLY Lucky and it's a shame about the young blokes injuries and I guess had he have been from the handout mentality things could have been very different for all involved (Thank god he wasn't)


All I've been trying to say is look at what your doing, and ask your self

What could go wrong?

What are the Risks to those in attendance?

What can we do to reduce these risks and still have fun?

What can we do to make it easier if something was to go wrong?

I'll sit back now and wait to be ripped apart again for being the fun police