This will make you think! - Page 2

BlueRaven · 25-02-2005, 09:31 PM

Tim brings up some fantastic points there...

I can say that I was untouched by most of that clip, however like many other people out there - my dad went to vietnam and suffers from post traumatic stress disorder amongst other things. He stayed in the army for 30years.

To me, these people are heros. I don't agree with the meaning of ANY war, but for a troop to go over there - regardless of what they believe - and fight for their country for that sole purpose...thats heroism.

I can not imagine what its like to fear for your life 24hrs a day, constantly on the edge...when they come back, things will never be the same again.

LuvinmyEB · 25-02-2005, 09:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by TIKFD6

LuvinmyEB, its not just Vietnam Vets,
PDSD is a huge problem in guys who went to Timor, Somalia, and Rawanda, which was one of the worts.

I Went to Bouganville in 1994, For the original talks thy had there, and there was a bit of bad shit that happend there.
I have also ben diagnosed with some Phsyc, problems from my Military service, and i cant even start to imagnie what my father goes through.
He went to Vietnam 3 times, and saw and went through some Very bad shit.

Even worse was his fathers generation, WWII vetrans, and worse again was the WWI vets.
They had no supprot and if they showed that they had problems they where called weak, and werent men.

I know it's not just the Vietnam vets, it's just the first thing that came to my mind. My uncle did one tour and came back thinking he was invincible and then was killed after an argument and a car chase. I've actually had a fair few relations that were in WWI & WWII.

They don't talk about it and yes you're right, it was drummed into them that men are weak if they cry. Having worked in Psych myself, I have seen my share of ex service men with PTSD and other pyschiatriac problems. It's not a pretty sight, it really does annoy me that people shun our service men when they get back home. They were sent to do a job, they had to follow orders, and I'm damn sure (in fact I KNOW having sat in on initial pscyh interviews with these now shells of men) that they did not want to do the majority of the things that they had to do let alone see any of the things that they did.

Timmeh, do you know of any websites/places/agancies where you can become a penpal/email pals of Aussie troops?

Dez · 25-02-2005, 09:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlueRaven

To me, these people are heros. I don't agree with the meaning of ANY war, but for a troop to go over there - regardless of what they believe - and fight for their country for that sole purpose...thats heroism.

could not have said that better! thats why when the term hero is thrown around to describe sporting stars, it kind of makes me sick.

it is not heroic to play sport, it does not make you a hero. going to war on the other hand.

Timmeh · 25-02-2005, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LuvinmyEB

Timmeh, do you know of any websites/places/agancies where you can become a penpal/email pals of Aussie troops?

You can go to http://www.defence.gov.au/message_to_troops.cfm for general messages, but I'd have to investigate further for a more specific one.

Tim

merlin · 25-02-2005, 09:58 PM

sorry no goose bumps here

:

as someone else said - looks like US propaganda to me.

BUT, Having said that - to the Aussie soldiers - keep up the top work, no matter what anyone believes is right or wrong when it comes to Iraq - your still doing us proud.

PS - guys do you really think its appropriate to be comparing this to the Vietnam war?.....A war that killed hundred of thoudands of soldiers.....a lifes a life but surely Vietnam Vets had it a bit harder. Just my opinion - no offence intended.

MO · 25-02-2005, 11:25 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Timmeh

To anyone who reckons they can fight a war without anything going 'wrong' - I invite you to try, you're a dreamer. People make mistakes at work all the time, but their mistakes don't impact anyone - oh no, disaster, someone put too much sauce on a burger! Not everything goes according to plan every single time, it's just in our profession when things go wrong, it's fatal and well publicised.

While every possible action must be taken to avoid the tragedies of war, there are no winners, and no matter how much you try to do your job as perfectly as possible, stuff still happens.

And people die. It's war. If terrorists weren't actively killing us, and the civilian aid workers there, we wouldn't have half the deaths. In fact, there'd be no need for any more.

Thanks for the link, Kerry, being away from home here for so long means I really identify with how some of those guys are feeling, all the best to them. People don't realise how much a little support goes a long way, hell, I sometimes don't hear from close friends when I go away until I get back.

I wish all the people over there the best, I hope they know people back home sitting on their ***** making stupid critical comments while drinking a beer on the lounge are wishing them well.

And yes, I do get passionate about it.

Tim

"Only the dead have seen the end of war."

Your sort of on track however there are those that join when there needed and those that join cause the fed.

The point of this is if you join a military service,you can expect to go into a conflict at any time.

Whilst I could not get the link up...dial up and bloody slow @28.6k....I guess what I'm trying to say is if your in a conflict you do everything you can to stay alive and get home....no matter what...war crimes don't count unless your stupid or get caught.

War/conflict is no longer about the superior force winning ....it's about the most politically correct force winning.

As for Veitnam they only sent those that did'nt want to go..I wanted to go but was never posted...go figure and think about it??!!!

Timmeh,you still have'nt told me what you train the F18 pilots in,it would be nice to know!!!!

MustangNicko · 25-02-2005, 11:55 PM

What about the 100's of thousands of innocent people that died in Vietnam? The amount of innocents that died shadows the amount of soldiers that died. The Yanks have got to learn to stop flexing their ****ing muscles. But i do agree that it does look like US propaganda and it didnt really touch me, ive seen much worse. It made me sort of ****ed off to see them there fighting for something they dont beleive in, that would be the hardest thing

Envious · 26-02-2005, 12:08 AM

Quote:

do you know of any websites/places/agancies where you can become a penpal/email pals of Aussie troops?

LuvinmyEB, i will get u some contact details on monday for secdet 6 so u can send some emails to the blokes that are there now....

(PS, told u my post would stir the pot)

Dez · 26-02-2005, 12:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MustangNicko

What about the 100's of thousands of innocent people that died in Vietnam? The amount of innocents that died shadows the amount of soldiers that died. The Yanks have got to learn to stop flexing their ****ing muscles. But i do agree that it does look like US propaganda and it didnt really touch me, ive seen much worse. It made me sort of ****ed off to see them there fighting for something they dont beleive in, that would be the hardest thing

its all been mentioned, innocent people will always die in a war, thats war. but think of how many people hussein would torture and murder....

Envious · 26-02-2005, 12:55 AM

and to think, this has all come from my comment that the clip was pure propoganda......sheesh

TIKFD6 · 26-02-2005, 08:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by merlin

PS - guys do you really think its appropriate to be comparing this to the Vietnam war?.....A war that killed hundred of thoudands of soldiers.....a lifes a life but surely Vietnam Vets had it a bit harder. Just my opinion - no offence intended.

Its not that we are compareing it to the Vietnam war, its just stating the fact that up until our troops went to and returned from Timor there was Minimal n service Phsyc support and comunity support.

In some ways the Vietnam vets had it harder but dont forget todays society as a whole is more vocal and more aware of whats going on in the world.

leonbray · 26-02-2005, 08:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dogbreath_48

..but did anyone else see something seriously wrong with the bloke filling up the donkey from the bowser?!

-Stu

yeah ... I could understand if it was a camel - but a donkey?

LuvinmyEB · 26-02-2005, 08:44 AM

Thanks for the link Timmeh. ;)

Envious, I'll be waiting for that addy.

BlueRaven · 26-02-2005, 09:09 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by leonbray

yeah ... I could understand if it was a camel - but a donkey?

Timmeh · 26-02-2005, 12:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by John McMaster

Timmeh,you still have'nt told me what you train the F18 pilots in,it would be nice to know!!!!

My apologies, I did not see your question anywhere... have you posted in a thread I am not aware of?

I won't go into much detail into what I do for obvious reasons, but I do a range of work with them, from conversion from the Hawk lead in fighter to certifications, lead ups to missile shoots, pretty much anything they need practise in, just to keep their skills up or hone a particular event.

Tim

Psycho Chicken · 26-02-2005, 03:06 PM

Well said Tim.

Quote:

Originally Posted by merlin

BUT, Having said that - to the Aussie soldiers - keep up the top work, no matter what anyone believes is right or wrong when it comes to Iraq - your still doing us proud.

And why not to the America soldiers? Just because their generals have a much more gun-ho approach than ours, doesn't mean they are any less deserving. They are one following orders, not making them. They are the ones who have signed their life on the dotted line. Is it their fault how the war is being executed?

Quote:

PS - guys do you really think its appropriate to be comparing this to the Vietnam war?.....A war that killed hundred of thoudands of soldiers.....a lifes a life but surely Vietnam Vets had it a bit harder. Just my opinion - no offence intended.

Rubbish. A war is a war, I'd imagine they would all be hell. Nothing is being published on what happens to the Iraqi vets when they get home like has been said about Vietnam vets. They aren't getting off ships to be spat on by long haired ****ers who don't respect that they are just following orders. At least if they are we aren't hearing about it. Give it a few years, I'm sure we'll hear more of what the Iraq vets are going through, especially when they are denied the psych support they need.

Quote:

Originally Posted by TIKFD6

Dan its not steeling, its aquiring.

:

Stores relocation ;)

leonbray · 26-02-2005, 03:25 PM

.....there are no winners in any war

merlin · 26-02-2005, 06:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Psycho Chicken

Rubbish. A war is a war, I'd imagine they would all be hell. Nothing is being published on what happens to the Iraqi vets when they get home like has been said about Vietnam vets. They aren't getting off ships to be spat on by long haired ****ers who don't respect that they are just following orders. At least if they are we aren't hearing about it. Give it a few years, I'm sure we'll hear more of what the Iraq vets are going through, especially when they are denied the psych support they need.

Sorry gotta disagree - what "war" exactly are you talking about? The Aussies wernt involved in the "invasion" they are there as peacekeepers.

The Aussie contingent comprises of a couple of hundred soldiers babysitting a "safezone" in Iraq. Yes its dangerous and yes it would be lonely. BUT:

You think you can compare this to the horrors of Vietnam??? FFS the Aussies in Iraq are brave men/women - not doubting that - but do not compare it to the f$$ckn hell of Vietnam.

Envious · 26-02-2005, 07:58 PM

i agree that it shouldnt be compared to Vietnam merlin...
but....this is classified as a 'war', aussies arent there peacekeeping, they are there defending the 'safezone' under 'war-like' conditions. Please dont go underestimating what my friends are doing....thanks.

TIKFD6 · 26-02-2005, 08:11 PM

No one has actually compared it t Vietnam.
But the thing is i know a hell of alot of Vietnam Vets who do compare itto their conflict.
Go figure.

py:

merlin · 27-02-2005, 09:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Envious

i agree that it shouldnt be compared to Vietnam merlin...
but....this is classified as a 'war', aussies arent there peacekeeping, they are there defending the 'safezone' under 'war-like' conditions. Please dont go underestimating what my friends are doing....thanks.

Mate, not underestimating them at all - their doing a very dangerous job, very well - I was afraid my statement may have come across as a little harsh, but it just got up my nose a little when people starting mentioning Vietnem and making comparisons.

It's weird isn't it - its not really a "War" in one sense - that requires an organised and trained enemy force, but in another sense its still just as dangerous, snipers and suicide bombers waiting to cause havoc at any opportunity.

davocol · 27-02-2005, 12:00 PM

Very good link Kerry, some really good shots.

Sourbastard · 27-02-2005, 01:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by merlin

Sorry gotta disagree - what "war" exactly are you talking about? The Aussies wernt involved in the "invasion" they are there as peacekeepers.

The Special Air Service might disagree. Our special forces played key roles in Afghanistan and Iraq, in the types of operations specops always excel in. In small groups, carrying 50 - 75 kg of gear, far behind enemy lines, with no real support if they get into the shit.

Quote:

Originally Posted by merlin

The Aussie contingent comprises of a couple of hundred soldiers babysitting a "safezone" in Iraq. Yes its dangerous and yes it would be lonely. BUT:

You think you can compare this to the horrors of Vietnam??? FFS the Aussies in Iraq are brave men/women - not doubting that - but do not compare it to the f$$ckn hell of Vietnam.

Its easily comparable to Vietnam to the single person on the ground. He/she wakes up in the morning wondering what new bag of crap awaits today. Guerilla warfare is the same now as it was then. Your enemy comes out of the crowd in civilian clothes, sends your squad home in plastic bags and dissappears back into the crowd. You walk the streets everyday wondering if today is the day, does that kid have a grenade, is that donkey packed with HE, is that movement on the roof, is that old man a lookout. The stress is the same, the scenarios are the same and the AO is always 'hot'.

And you may not give a stuff about the cause for which you fight, but you ALWAYS fight for the man next to you, cause you know he will do the same for you, or die trying.