New ZF 8

Ibrox90 · 11-08-2009, 02:24 PM

Theres a new ZF 8speed box entering production nearing the end of this year.

My pondering:

Could we potentially see an 8 speed falcon???

XR6_661 · 11-08-2009, 02:32 PM

What'd be the point of 8 gears? Personally I think anymore then 6 is stupid.

But to answer your question, no I don't think we'd ever see an 8 speed Falcon...The 8spd would more then likely go into high end euro cars...M5s, etc.

MITCHAY · 11-08-2009, 02:34 PM

Doubt it highly. I hate autos anyway.

Ibrox90 · 11-08-2009, 02:40 PM

I also hate autos but ZF have it down to a finer art than most and they accelerate faster than manuals.

8 gears well its an auto so it picks the gear seemlessly. and i guess with 8 your always in the "right" gear.

more rev manage management meaning your always cruising at 1500-2000 rpm. ZF report 30% fuel saving and unlike L per 100kms manufactuer ratings ZF are usually on the money and truthful

Wally · 11-08-2009, 02:57 PM

If BMW and other German makers do continue with the three pot engine development, this could be a could fit, provided the line losses aren't too great.

platinumXR · 11-08-2009, 02:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrox90

Could we potentially see an 8 speed falcon???

More to the point: Is there REALLY a need for an 8 speed automatic in a car?

Ibrox90 · 11-08-2009, 03:00 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by platinumXR

More to the point: Is there REALLY a need for an 8 speed automatic in a car?

with rising fuel costs??? probably

Peter B - CV8 · 11-08-2009, 03:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by platinumXR

More to the point: Is there REALLY a need for an 8 speed automatic in a car?

A gear for each cylinder ?????? sounds good to me

CSV_LS1 · 11-08-2009, 03:17 PM

An 8 speed with a 4 cylinder turbo would suit in the falcon. But doubt it would happen.

XR6_190 · 11-08-2009, 03:26 PM

Would be a good thing in a Falcon, the fuel savings would be great, but I seriously can't see it for another 6 to 10 years at least. As for the people out there who are wandering why we need 8 gears in an auto, are you the same people that wandered why an auto would need anymore than 3 gears 35 years ago? Just wandering.

platinumXR · 11-08-2009, 03:27 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ibrox90

with rising fuel costs??? probably

Would be fine with no throttle changes, but move the throttle slightly and you'd be changin' gears too much. I understand your thinking but I think in practise...not too sure...

**Luke Plaizier** · 11-08-2009, 03:33 PM

If it's being built, someone has done a business case for it, seen the benefits, and had it approved.

Why are we sitting here discussing whether there is a need for one when someone with heaps of money has already asked and found the answer to be yes?

Someone once asked if a CVT was need, with an 'sliding scale' of ratios - which makes it an unecessarily large number of 'gears' - and here we are disrespecting the 8's.

Some day, 6 speeds will be the poor-mans auto like 4-speeds are now.

Lukeyson

Fairlane · 11-08-2009, 03:34 PM

8 Gears bit of a **** I think. I dove a lexus with 8 speeds and that was complete overkill. 6 Speeds is fine.

Lukeyson · 11-08-2009, 03:36 PM

to be honest, i think we will see them eventually.
In late 2000-2001? people were raving about these wizz bang 6 speed autos that were going to make it into high end Audi's in the next year or two, and people were like "those box's will never make their way into falcon"

T3ts50 · 11-08-2009, 04:24 PM

The new 8 speed was supposed to go in the new 7 series Beemer but wasnt ready in time. BMW will apparently first use the 8 speed in the new M7.

big-e · 11-08-2009, 04:43 PM

I thought 6 speed was an overkill and I bet everyone else did when it was only 3 speed auto - they all would have thought why would we need 6 speed auto?

Well we need it to move forward.

Why do we need a w16 quad turbo bugatti?
Well its so we can create something new so richer people can buy it. and when they are bored of it, pass it over to the general public who will be happy with it.

The the technology keeps on improving.

So to answer your question.... YES
we do need an 8 speed auto, as well as a w16 quad turbo bugatti. which will then be given to the poor people in BMW and Mercs then to poorer people in Fords and Holdens.
By that time bugatti would have a 12 speed auto working on a twin engine w32 and 16 turbos in a car that weighs 900kgs.

FPV+fteT3 · 11-08-2009, 04:51 PM

With a max speed of 110 you would never get to use any above 6 anyway. 7 and 8 would still be new in a 5yo car

chevypower · 11-08-2009, 05:02 PM

You could have a hundred gears, but would there be any benefit for your engine to rev 90+ times to get to cruising speed and having your tranny do non-stop shifting? I am not against more gears, but just don't do it for the sake making it a selling point. Or put it this way, don't assume that just because one transmission has 8 gears and another has 6, does not necessarily mean the 8 is smoother, or has better performance or has better reliability or fuel economy or better towing performance. But which ever one achivies that criteria regardless of how many gears it has. Then give me that one.

platinumXR · 11-08-2009, 05:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by chevypower

You could have a hundred gears, but would there be any benefit for your engine to rev 90+ times to get to cruising speed and having your tranny do non-stop shifting? I am not against more gears, but just don't do it for the sake making it a selling point. Or put it this way, don't assume that just because one transmission has 8 gears and another has 6, does not necessarily mean the 8 is smoother, or has better performance or has better reliability or fuel economy or better towing performance. But which ever one achivies that criteria regardless of how many gears it has. Then give me that one.

Yeah, 'tis what I reckon - gears for gears sake. I see 6 as being a bit borderline in respect to real world usability and tractability. At the speeds and roads 90% of the population drive on - as FPV+fteT3 pointed out, any more and they would be kind of superfluous.

Sorry, still not convinced.

flappist · 11-08-2009, 05:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by FPV+fteT3

With a max speed of 110 you would never get to use any above 6 anyway. 7 and 8 would still be new in a 5yo car

Yes, my GT-P had 5 gears and did 250km/h so why did they put a 6 speed in the newer models?
They all sit quite happily at 110 in 4th, I bet they never ever see 5th or 6th.......

The advantage in 8 speed over 6 is that it can be configured for shorter "torque bands" so you engine is applying its max torque more often and you don't have to ring its neck to get somewhere quickly.

Simple comparison. BA2 GT vs BF1 GT, same engine but one is 4 speed the other 6 speed.

Which one is quicker over the 400m?

Compare BA2 XR8 to BF1 XR8.

SX to SY Territory...

BF XR6 4 speed to BF XR6 6 speed....

One interesting thing to note is that an 8 speed will narrow the gap of a N/A vs F/I engine in the same car i.e. GTs will be closer to F6s......

Falc'man · 11-08-2009, 05:52 PM

Forget this 8sp for the Falcon, we haven't even got the upgraded ZF 6sp yet. If ever.

Plus, I'd rather Ford (US) did more towards having DSG for the whole range, not just the low torque motors. And I would they already are.

T3man · 11-08-2009, 07:48 PM

Autos don't need more than two gears. Three is overdone. Four is superfluous. Five and six is just plain bragging. So 7 and 8 are totally overindulgent.

PS. I drive a 12 speed auto every day. LOL.

AzuR · 11-08-2009, 07:56 PM

they had an 8 speed auto on top gear UK, think it was in a lexus, they said it was just to many gears, it was contantly changing to try n find the right gear

:

snappy · 11-08-2009, 08:49 PM

I told you guys ford have been testing a 8spd ages ago and you fobed me off.
The biggest problem there having is the increased torque from gearing is shearing tailshafts.

phillyc · 11-08-2009, 09:09 PM

Here is a few links

http://horsepowersports.com/zf-devel...-transmission/

Quote:

Another development focus was the increase in performance. The power-to-weight ratio of the new automatic transmission is higher and can transmit a higher input torque at the same weight, while utilizing the same installation space as a 6-speed. In terms of shift comfort, response and shifting speed, the new 8-speed transmission operates at the already very high level of the second generation of the ZF 6-speed automatic.

http://www.reuters.com/article/press...09+PRN20090415

Quote:

The new design shifts in milliseconds, and improves fuel economy by 6 percent over the second-generation ZF 6-speed, and by 14 percent over 5-speed automatics still commonly used. The 8-speed automatic can be adapted for mild and full hybrid use simply by adding an electric motor in place of the torque converter. In a mild hybrid application, an additional 15 percent fuel savings can be achieved.

Here is some information on the updated ZF6 that others have said we don't get.

http://www.atzonline.com/index.php;d...lloc=3/id=7835

Quote:

In 2001, the 6-speed automatic transmission family by ZF was launched into the market. In the course of technical redesign in 2006, fuel consumption was reduced again by 3% for petrol and 6% for diesel engines. Shifting dynamics were raised to the level of dual clutch transmissions (1). To meet the further targets of fuel efficiency and CO2 reduction requirements, ZF made the decision to develop a new 8-speed automatic transmission family. The development targets are another increase in fuel economy by 6%, improved driving performance at the same time, retaining the shifting dynamics already achieved with the 6-speed 2nd generation.

So, if it can reduce consumption by 14% versus the referenced 5spd, then using the Bordeaux 5spd in the Falcon, this means consumption could be down from 10.5L/100km to as little as 9.0L/100km.

Using the 6% against the ZF2 which is itself 3% better (petrol) than the first ZF, we get a similar figure of 9.1L/100km after using the 9.9L/100km as a reference point.

In short, yes we do 'need' 8spds for increased economy, performance and torque capability! But at what cost?! IMO We will get Ford DSG before anything.

Falc'man · 11-08-2009, 09:18 PM

Good post and info, Phil. Thanks.

The DSG is the way to, it's just a matter of time before it's made available for the higher outputs.

The ZF in the Falcon would have never happened had it not been for PAG, and I doubt Ford Au are in a hurry to pay more for the premium 8sp when the unit they already have almost ensures they will always have a better auto than their competitors.

Bucknaked · 11-08-2009, 09:26 PM

Having the option of an 8 speed auto is not such a bad thing. There are consumers in the market place who think having more is better. And there will % of buyers who will be swayed by having an 8 speed auto. Unlike alot of people I love auto's, not a fan of manuals because I just want to get in the car and drive it from point "A" to point "B" without having to use a clutch and work out which gear I want. Manual gearboxes are over rated, and my has a 6 speed Manual. It doesn't come with an Auto, which if it had, then thats what I would have got.

Bring on the 8 speed auto. No-ones driven one yet, so no-one know's exactley how good or bad they compared to the 6 speed auto. We have technology now, the new 8 speed is bound to be a winner.

ThePistonHead · 11-08-2009, 10:28 PM

Wonder what sort of weight two extra cogs would be..

But seriously, 6 speed is the old 5 speed - It's only a matter of time before we get more and more gears.

Just got to wait for the car companies to make it reliable, affordable and better than Lexus' latest offering.

I'm sure the 'new' 6 speed auto's weren't too flash when they just came into production cars. Remember the news of falcon getting 6 sp with BF, and was surprised.

**data_mine** · 11-08-2009, 11:00 PM

weighs no more

Quote:

Originally Posted by from above

Another development focus was the increase in performance. The power-to-weight ratio of the new automatic transmission is higher and can transmit a higher input torque at the same weight, while utilizing the same installation space as a 6-speed.

Bent8 · 11-08-2009, 11:57 PM

It's really just a technology race. No car needs 8 gears for everyday or even performance driving.

Even MB's 7-speed auto has been known to hunt around when driving on the highway.

The current 6sp ZF already has a very short 1st gear and will do around 1800rpm at 110kph in top gear...what else could you want from an Aussie Falcon?....