More power without forced induction

388cube_edxr8 · 02-07-2010, 03:27 PM

Lo all,

I have been working on a new product aimed at the car enthusiast market, mainly those with a Provisional license.

I am in the process of building the first prototype of a device which improves fuel economy during normal driving, and increases power under heavy acceleration. Of course, it's P-Plate legal.

The device is scalable depending on the size of your engine, and would cost approximately half as much to buy and install as the correct sized turbo for your car. Without revealing too much, only some very small modifications need to be made to your engine. The engine internals, bottom end, fuel supply and induction are not changed.

It's called the Atkinson Charger, and works with any engine configuration or modification you can think of, including superchargers, nitrous, rotaries and diesels. However, it will not work with a tubocharger.

Is this something that would interest people?

AWD Chaser · 02-07-2010, 03:44 PM

So would I be interested in a Device which increases power by bolting it on?

but...

I would have to change unspecified engine components,
but you cant tell me how the device works
or how much it will cost
or if I need any extra bits and pieces for it (Belts, manifolds, etc)

Of course any power increase for minimal outlay catches everyones eyes,
but until I see how it works, and how I have to mod my car for it to work, I'll have to say pass for now...

388cube_edxr8 · 02-07-2010, 03:48 PM

Well obviously I can't tell you how it works,

"Unspecified components" is basically just the exhaust manifold

And the cost depends on the size of your engine, suffice to say it will be approximately 50% of a suitably sized turbo.

All the "bits and pieces" come with it, and are installed by me (or you if you want to save money on labour, obviously the warranty is affected with this option)

Quicksand · 02-07-2010, 03:50 PM

How long is a piece of string?

What gains will i get?
How much will it cost for installation and parts?
How does it comare $ to KW/NM to Turbo Chargers, Superchargers, etc?
What support/warranty is there for the product? How much does the support cost?
What makes it different to the other products on the market?

I think it is fair to say most enthusiasts would be interested in a product that ticks all boxes (proven gains, reasonable cost, good support/warranty/customer service available, comparable or better than other alternatives).

It's a big market, so it needs to be good!

388cube_edxr8 · 02-07-2010, 04:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Inducted_Breeze

How long is a piece of string?

What gains will i get?
How much will it cost for installation and parts?
How does it comare $ to KW/NM to Turbo Chargers, Superchargers, etc?
What support/warranty is there for the product? How much does the support cost?
What makes it different to the other products on the market?

I think it is fair to say most enthusiasts would be interested in a product that ticks all boxes (proven gains, reasonable cost, good support/warranty/customer service available, comparable or better than other alternatives).

It's a big market, so it needs to be good!

A few fair points.

Cant really report on gains till I test it. As for $$/kw, that needs to be tested too.

12 months warranty on parts and labour. If you want to install it yourself and save money that's great, but I'm not going to give out free lessons on how to do it. That being said, any half decent mechanic should be able to figure it out, it's quite a simple design.

Being so simple, its as reliable as a wood burning stove. It compares very well to other products on the market, because it actually works as promised, instead of some electric turbo scam (it's not electric).

Any other questions?

FPV GTHO · 02-07-2010, 04:10 PM

What are the P plate restrictions for QLD? Here you still cant drive any vehicle with "modifications that increase engine performance", thus in NSW at least such an idea would still be illegal for P plate drivers.

388cube_edxr8 · 02-07-2010, 04:14 PM

Oh damn, I thought it was the same all over Australia. In QLD you can drive anything as long as it has less than 8 cylinders, less than 200kw and no forced induction. Diesels and a few very small Suzukis are exempt from the forced induction rule. For some reason 13B rotaries are banned too, even in NA form, but the 12A is fine.

I'm sure I can convince NSW Transport or whatever they're called that the Atkinson Charger is for efficiency only.

Road_Warrior · 02-07-2010, 04:26 PM

In Wait Awhile P platers can drive whatever they want.

Srsly.

WASP · 02-07-2010, 04:29 PM

Any modification to increases the vehicles performance will unlikely be legal, unless its ADR and emissions tested and approved for that particular vehicle in that state. Even once you have obtained this for one vehicle, each and every vehicle owner that installs the kit will need to have this modification inspected and approved by the RTA before it is considered legal and road worthy on thier particular vehicle. Either that or each vehicle will need to be signed off by a mechanical engineer that is approved by the local RTA.

Personally I cannot see many P platers wanting to take their vehicles in for an RTA inspection as this will require their entire vehicle to be of roadworthy condition even if the modification itself is given approval. Then there is the money thing of course so it would be my bet that most won’t bother until they get defected anyway.

I terrible sorry to come across like a party pooper here but I think the idea, if targeting P platers as the primary user anyway has legal as well as social problems written all over it. This market is full of young inexperienced drivers with some exceptions of course.

I was a P plater once. I was 17, owned a modified V8. To this day I have no idea how I didn’t kill myself, or hurt anyone else in the process at the time. I also appreciate that not all P platers would act in this manner. As a car enthusiast, and a father, I urge you to give these points some serious consideration if you haven’t already.

388cube_edxr8 · 02-07-2010, 04:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

In Wait Awhile P platers can drive whatever they want.

Srsly.

Wait Awhile... I've seen that movie. For those who haven't, I'll spoil the ending for you: Power and efficiency are still important in a car.

Looks like the smart *** just got out smart assed by another smart ***.

Fev · 02-07-2010, 05:02 PM

This isn't 'negative supercharging' or something is it? A bloke at a local car show showed that off to me once.

But without any information on what it is why would you ask?

flappist · 02-07-2010, 05:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 388cube_edxr8

Oh damn, I thought it was the same all over Australia. In QLD you can drive anything as long as it has less than 8 cylinders, less than 200kw and no forced induction. Diesels and a few very small Suzukis are exempt from the forced induction rule. For some reason 13B rotaries are banned too, even in NA form, but the 12A is fine.

I'm sure I can convince NSW Transport or whatever they're called that the Atkinson Charger is for efficiency only.

Might want to check your traffic act, my datto is a 6 cyl and naturally aspirated and is not P plate legal.

388cube_edxr8 · 02-07-2010, 05:14 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fev

This isn't 'negative supercharging' or something is it? A bloke at a local car show showed that off to me once.

But without any information on what it is why would you ask?

I had to look that one up, but no, it's not negative supercharging.

I can't really give any information away on exactly what it is or how it works without giving away how to build one, which I can't do until I get it copyrighted and such. Lets just pretend for a moment that I can provide conclusive proof that every claim I have made is true, and the Atkinson Charger has been independently tested and verified by several different performance workshops, on a variety of different engines.

388cube_edxr8 · 02-07-2010, 05:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

Might want to check your traffic act, my datto is a 6 cyl and naturally aspirated and is not P plate legal.

If you are referring to your 350Z, might I ask what the manufacturer claimed power output is?

flappist · 02-07-2010, 05:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 388cube_edxr8

If you are referring to your 350Z, might I ask what the manufacturer claimed power output is?

A little bit more than the P plate legal Commodore, there are several sub 200kw porsches and BMWs that are also prohibited.

But getting back to your cunning plan.

Is this a new idea or have you just pinched someone elses?
How much money do you have for legal expenses?

If you sell this thing as P plate legal and you do not have documentation from the appropriate authorities confirming this (and you will not get this from a phone call or a quick visit) you will get nailed to a cross the first time some doof doof gets rolled by the highway patrol.

They will say it is forced induction and your "client" will have to prove it is not. Yes I know the law is supposed to work the other way but in the real world it is like beating a speeding fine, you are on the back foot before you start.
When he is found guilty and loses his license you will be in a world of hurt.

The bottom line is that P plate is a hot subject and no public vegetable is going to risk giving you anything in writing that might bite them on the bum. They will see this for exactly what it is, an attempt to circumvent the "spirit" of the law.

**DJM83** · 02-07-2010, 05:38 PM

Talk about shooting a guy for having a go jesus. Ok lets get off the topic of p plate requirements, someone might want this who isnt a P plater so how about you guys give him a chance first before knocking the idea eh?

04redxr8 · 02-07-2010, 05:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 388cube_edxr8

I'm sure I can convince NSW Transport or whatever they're called that the Atkinson Charger is for efficiency only.

Quote:

Originally Posted by 388cube_edxr8

I can't really give any information away on exactly what it is or how it works without giving away how to build one, which I can't do until I get it copyrighted and such. Lets just pretend for a moment that I can provide conclusive proof that every claim I have made is true, and the Atkinson Charger has been independently tested and verified by several different performance workshops, on a variety of different engines.

I doubt you can have it both ways. While our Government are a pack of morons, they seem pretty quick to spot a performance modification.

P platers wouldn't be allowed any modifications. Kind of pointless to allow modifications, if your trying to limit what cars can be driven based on power outputs.

As for people asking you what it will do?, may I suggest that this being a Ford forum, if you could maybe hazard a guess at what your expecting it to do and cost on a base Barra I6. Have tested the idea yet? If yes, what were the results?

These sort of answers would be required if your seeking an EOI, from the sort of people you are looking to sell to.

Good luck with it though.

FreddyDUZ747 · 02-07-2010, 05:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 388cube_edxr8

I'm sure I can convince NSW Transport or whatever they're called that the Atkinson Charger is for efficiency only.

I admire your outlook but cant help but think your idea has allready been done in some capacity or another.

flappist · 02-07-2010, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 388cube_edxr8

If you are referring to your 350Z, might I ask what the manufacturer claimed power output is?

Ah I take it back, looks like they changed the rules again.

But this little bit will stop you in your tracks:

http://www.transport.qld.gov.au/Home...e_restriction/

a modified engine that must be approved under the Transport Operations (Road Use Management — Vehicle Standards and Safety) Regulation 1999, section 30.

388cube_edxr8 · 02-07-2010, 05:49 PM

In answer to your question, yes the idea is all mine, and as far as I can work out, I'm the only one who has thought of it thus far.

I am open to being corrected, but it shouldn't be too hard to prove the Atkinson Charger is not forced induction, because it is in no way connected to the air intake system.

The way I see it, as long as I can build this thing to comply with every letter of the law, and get someone on a government salary to agree that it is designed to improve efficiency, I can't see a problem.

Even if it is deemed not to be P plate legal, I'm sure there are many drivers on an open license that would appreciate an opportunity to increase power and economy.

Which leads us back to the original and so far still unanswered question, would you buy one? More information on the Atkinson Charger can be found in Post #1 and #5.

kenz · 02-07-2010, 05:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 388cube_edxr8

Which leads us back to the original and so far still unanswered question, would you buy one? More information on the Atkinson Charger can be found in Post #1 and #5.

I can't see how you can ask if we would buy one if thats all the info you can give. Yes I understand you dont wana give away what it is but you can't ask who would buy one until all the info is on the table

388cube_edxr8 · 02-07-2010, 05:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 04redxr8

As for people asking you what it will do?, may I suggest that this being a Ford forum, if you could maybe hazard a guess at what your expecting it to do and cost on a base Barra I6. Have tested the idea yet? If yes, what were the results?

The prototype is still under construction, I will post the power and economy figure changes as soon as I can. Oddly enough, the test mule I have lined up is in fact a base model EL.

Fev · 02-07-2010, 05:57 PM

Well if it works and isn't priced exorbitantly then of course we'd be interested but there's a big difference between saying that and actually having a product we can see and make judgements on whether we'd want it or not.

ZA-289 · 02-07-2010, 05:57 PM

Is it april 1st again?

Does it come with a free flux Capacitor?

Yes I'm a pesimist.

JPFS1 · 02-07-2010, 06:06 PM

Don't quite understand the critical replies at this early stage. Its obvious the poster is working on a prototype system and can't give much away.

To answer on behalf of any enthusiast and even general motorist... you won't have trouble getting people interested... after all, people buy premium unleaded for the exact same reasons.

Your success will come from the bang for your buck results.

flappist · 02-07-2010, 06:08 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 388cube_edxr8

In answer to your question, yes the idea is all mine, and as far as I can work out, I'm the only one who has thought of it thus far.

I am open to being corrected, but it shouldn't be too hard to prove the Atkinson Charger is not forced induction, because it is in no way connected to the air intake system.

The way I see it, as long as I can build this thing to comply with every letter of the law, and get someone on a government salary to agree that it is designed to improve efficiency, I can't see a problem.

Even if it is deemed not to be P plate legal, I'm sure there are many drivers on an open license that would appreciate an opportunity to increase power and economy.

Which leads us back to the original and so far still unanswered question, would you buy one? More information on the Atkinson Charger can be found in Post #1 and #5.

I will give you an example of the mentality of the people you are dealing with.

I used to hold a gun dealers license.

Under the Weapons Act 1990 the definition of a Cat H weapon was any weapon that was not Cat R and less than 75cm in overall length.
The Austyer F88 carbine (16 inch barrel version semi auto only) has an overall length of 70cm so I checked with weapons registry on the legality of selling these to Cat H licensee and was told it was perfectly ok.

I bought 23 of them for about $100k and started selling them.

Three months later I had a customer ring me to tell me that his had been confiscated by some local superhero in blue who did not understand the weapons act.
I rang weapons registry to enquire and was told that there was no record of my previous enquiries and the emails I have were of no value and they were coming to see me in the morning to investigate (translation confiscate until they could change the law).
I moved them out of QLD that same day so they could not touch them and they were upset that they could not take them and threatened me with all sorts of evil retribution (which never happened of course). They all ended up with theatrical armorers.

Public vegetables will lie and backflip at the drop of a hat.

P.S. if you would like to see some of my F88s watch Sea Patrol

But if your gizmo works forget about P platers, there are squillions of ricers and NA V8/6 owners who will do almost anything to get a few more killerwasps and there is no "high profile" problem.

If it is your own idea and it is patentable check with an IP lawyer just to make sure someone else has not already patented it. You might end up very rich

04redxr8 · 02-07-2010, 06:11 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 388cube_edxr8

The prototype is still under construction, I will post the power and economy figure changes as soon as I can. Oddly enough, the test mule I have lined up is in fact a base model EL.

That would be a baseline at least. The reason I suggested you provide details for a 6 is that as you stated in your OP, it is scalabe. So it will be more for an 8, less for a 4. Good middle of the road idea.

Do you have any expectations of what your test mule may do? How much would you be roughly looking at to fit it to an EL 6?

At the risk of sounding negative, you may need more time invested in the project before seeking buyers. We would need more info.

Another thing to consider, you may want to show this to all insurance companies when it is finished (and patented of course). If it was cost effective, provided a good performance increase without causing premature wear to my car, and my insurance company approved, I'd maybe consider it.

If it's not forced induction, you may also want stop calling it the Atkinson Charger, its giving me the impression that it is forced induction.

Airmon · 02-07-2010, 06:22 PM

You have me intrigued, I'm familiar with a little bit of it from thermodynamic but no sure on how you're going to apply it. What I have in mind doesn't leave the bottom end stock.

It would all depend on cost v power, and what it looks like. If the boys in blue see something and they dont know what it is they'll probably play it safe and fine you just to be sure.

auxr · 02-07-2010, 06:28 PM

I wouldn't even consider looking at any new product until I knew it had been tested and could provide the results for the money outlayed.

I'm not saying anything against the idea as a prototype, but it's the very same question in my book as; " I have an amazing invention that I have located in my glove box - would you like to buy it? "

Franco Cozzo · 02-07-2010, 06:39 PM

Be careful with P plate laws, they're different from state to state, so far NSW and VIC are the harshest.

In Victoria, it comes under a performance modification if it increases ANY amount of power/torque the engine creates from stock.